An Tir Internal Letter of Intent

Free to all persons willing to comment on a regular basis

Commentary due on this letter by December 4th 1998

This letter is also available by subscription for $12.00 U.S./year


October 15, 1998

Greetings unto the An Tir College of Heralds from Maryn Lion's Blood!

I hope this letter finds you all well. Most of the submissions are now coming in on the new forms (and there is much rejoicing). Not a lot in the "news", but I have to go out of town for awhile in November. I was asked, in reference to this excursion, whether or not I had started training a successor. The answer is, well, yes and no. That is, Stalwart can easily write a letter if needs be, but does not wish to succeed to the office. SO…

I believe that means that it is time to call for trainees. Anyone who thinks that they might be interested in eventually becoming Lion's Blood Herald, write me a letter! Most of my tenure is still to run, so this is not the "Okay, somebody catch this job before it drops" call for volunteers. However, if someone - for ease of training, preferably someone who can occasionally physically come to my house - wants to take a preliminary squint at the job, now's a good time to mention it!

Commentary on the September letter will be due by November 20th for inclusion in decisions made at the November Lion's Blood meeting. This time the November meeting will be held a little later in the month than usual; it will be held on Saturday, the 21st of November, at the HL Natasha Orionova Zateeva's house in Glymm Mere, at 1:00 pm.

To reach HL Natasha's house at 6480 4th Way SE: exit from I-5 at Martin Way, turn north toward the fairgrounds and go straight through the light at Carpenter Road. Take the next right (Kinwood); the second left off Kinwood is 4th Way. Take the first left from 4th Way into the cul-de-sac.

The December Lion's Blood meeting will be in Portland. Dame Zenobia Naphtali will be hosting the meeting on the Sunday after the Triumphs of Oriana. Directions and time will be in the November letter.

Volunteers to host meetings are still being eagerly sought! To host a meeting doesn't mean it has to be at your house; it can be, say, at your local library meeting room. C'mon, people, I know you don't want to drive to Bremerton!

The letters of comment for the September meeting were, well, largely lost due to my idiocy in storing them on the infrequently-backed-up computer. Replacement letters were received from: Šlisabeth de Rossignol, with Ruadhan O Faolain and Jean Paul du Bois, Tegan Conwy, Frederick Badger, Zenobia Naphtali, and David of Moffat with Natasha Orionova Zateeva and Kateryn of Falconkeep.

If you wrote me a letter of comment, and you are not on this list of acknowledged commenters, that means that I didn't save out your letter soon enough to avoid the crash; please accept my profound apologies!

Old Submissions

1. dric Duquesne Device New

(Madrone, m. Patrick Bunt)

Per pale sable and vert, two dogs passant in pale within a bordure Or.

His name was registered in 1991. There wasn't really anything to add here; one commenter said, "What stag?" Sorry, I was referring to the fact that in printing the blazons as received, I had not made clear the fact that Mistress Fabienne's stag, (her submission on the April Internal Letter) was argent, and not Or, the way the blazon read. There had to be some hasty extra conflict checking (thank you, Electrum). Against Per pale sable and vert, a harp and a bordure Or, yes, you could count 1 for number and 1 for type. However, more appropriate might be to call it clear under Rfs. X.2 - "Difference of Primary Charges - Simple armory does not conflict with other simple armory if the type of every primary charge is substantially changed." (Then an extensive definition of simple armory follows.) The primary charges here are the harp and the dogs, and they appear to fall cleanly under the definitions as given. Oh, and if you would, please be sure, when you reference someone's armory in a conflict discussion, to say whose it is when you blazon it. Thanks!

2. Christiana Rowena Yonge Device Resubmission to Laurel


Quarterly per fess indented argent and vert, in chief three suns counterchanged gules and Or

Her name was registered in December 1994. Her previous device submission was returned in March 1997. I included in the letter to Laurel some of the information from her previous submission. For those who will find it of interest, parts of that information follow:

Her armory, interestingly, follows the design evolution of the mundane Young family as described in Roger F. Pye's More pseudo piles in Scottish coats, Coat of Arms NS V #125 Spring 1983. To summarize: the Youngs, like some Grahams and Gordons, evolved piles not out of pallets "scrunched" at the bottom but out of chiefs indented that grew longer and longer points until they became piles. The earliest Young seal found is in 1491 and shows a chief charged with three annulets. By 1542 (the Lindsay of the Mount roll) an illustration for "Zoung" (Young) shows Argent, on a chief indented sable three annulets argent. A 1521 seal of William Young's shows the chief indented charged with three annulets and an escallop in base - but the indentations are so deep that we would blazon them as piles were it not for the fact that the top of the chief is still solid (the bottom part of the 'indentations' does not touch the top of the shield.) By 1672 the design is drawn unmistakably as three piles issuant from a chief charged with three annulets. (With thanks for this information to Dame Zenobia, from whose Letter this comes.)

We feel that her submission (still) shows nice style in its allusion to the Young family. Also, I thought that the discussion, above, although from the previous submission, was interesting enough to bear repeating, showing as it does how she came to design her armory.

3. Gwenllian ferch Rhys Llywelyn Name New

(Cold Keep)

The name seemed to need no help from us, so we sent it up pretty much as you saw it on the Internal Letter. See 'Returns' for her device.

4. Haukyn Bayard Name and Device New


Per chevron throughout vert and Or two hawks' bells Or and a horse passant contourny sable

The name was good; we worked a little blazon fu. Most commenters were clear on the fact that one does not charge the "draped" portions of a chapÈ field. Per chevron throughout appears to be the more 'normal' way to blazon this division, so we are not "blazoning our way out of a problem" - which, as you all no doubt know, we may not do.

5. Mylisant de Sandeforthe Name and Device New

(Porte de L'eau)

Per saltire azure and sable, three chevronels braced and in chief a mill-rind argent.

A little blazon fu on "a mill-rind" vs. "one mill-rind". Otherwise, we sent it up without changes, but with a letter of permission to conflict with Melasandra Sandifer, registered in 1984.

(Copied brazenly and without a qualm from Electrum's comments):

Rfs V.1.b.iv provides that personal names do not conflict if each contains a name phrase that is significantly different from every name phrase in the other name. Rfs V.1.a.i provides that a name phrase is significantly different if it differs significantly in both sound and appearance. In this case, Sandifer and de Sandeforthe (being derived from the same origin) do not differ significantly in either sound or appearance. Therefore, if these two are not to conflict, Melasandra and Mylisant will have to be found to differ significantly in both sound and appearance. I think they may satisfy the requirement as to appearance, but I do not think they do as to sound.

This opinion was echoed by other commenters and senior staff, so we have taken the liberty of procuring the letter of permission to conflict. I'm not sure that the letter will help; a name is either different enough or it's not, but I'm hoping that permission will show that Melasandra doesn't think that the names are too alike.

6. Siobh·n Ruadh nÌ Mhathghamhna Device Resubmission to Kingdom

(Dragon's Laire)

Checky vert and argent, on a bend sinister sable three lions passant regardant fesswise argent

A nice redraw, which we sent up to Laurel.

7. Susanna Felhund Name New

(Coeur du Val)

Although I always worry for people when they decline to accept changes, her name has gone to Laurel. Perhaps the new forms will make the issue a little easier, since it allows for permitting levels of changes.

8. Wealdsmere, for the Order of the Golden Acorn Badge Resubmission to Laurel


Azure, three acorns conjoined at the stems in pall inverted Or within an orle of eight oak leaves in annulo argent.

This is from the June letter. This badge was returned from Laurel on the LoAR of January 1998. On the original submission the oak leaves were so heavily veined and marked in sable as to cause return for violating the rule of tincture, since they were so dark as to be, in fact, sable instead of argent. They have been reworked to make their "argentness" clear.

We also were waiting for replacement signatures. The rule in the Rules for Submission concerning the signatures of ruling nobles for submissions from and for branches is somewhat ambiguously worded. However, in An Tir the strong custom has been that the signatures of the ruling nobles (of a branch that has ruling nobles, whether barony, principality or kingdom) are required for badge submissions from that branch. Since this was one of the lost files, the previous signatures were no longer available; the herald has supplied this office with another copy of the original petition, with signatures of nobility and populace, so the submission can proceed.

The following have been returned for further work:

Gwenllian ferch Rhys Llywelyn Device New

(Cold Keep)

Sable a sun Or

Submitted as Sable an estoile Or, her device was reblazoned at Kingdom as Sable a sun Or to better describe the charge used. There are a number of devices registered with which this conflicts. However, the change of blazon did not cause the device to come into conflict with others already registered; for heraldic purposes, suns and stars of various types are considered to conflict. Laurel has ruled, on the LoAR of October 1993, p. 19:

"We grant no difference between mullets of six points and compass stars, nor between compass stars and suns, so all three are considered as variations on the same charge. …"

Some of the devices with which this conflicts are: Azure a compass star Or (Paul of Sunriver), with one CD for the change of the field; Sable semy of suns Or (Luxandra of Altumbrea), with one CD for the change to the number of primary charges; and Sable a sun in splendour Or within a bordure invected argent (Richard Fitzgilbert, badge), with one CD for removing the bordure. There are more, proving that lots of people have thought this a splendid design.

New Submissions:

1. •elfri• Hluda Badge New

(Three Mountains)

(Fieldless) Three plates conjoined

His name was registered in May 1998. See Oriana of Myrtlewood's badge submission later in this letter!

2. Brendan far Waulker Name and Device New

(Coeur du Val)

Or between two drawn bows sable fletched gules on a bend sinister gules a spear Or

This name is meant to be anglicized Irish or English; documentation is included for the name <Brendan> from Coghlan's The Book of Irish Names, which states that it means "Prince" and dates the name by example in the sixth century. Let me take this opportunity to point out that this book is on Laurel's list of name books to be avoided. If you own this book, donate it to your local library's book sale. Not, repeat, NOT a good source. This doesn't mean that the man can't have <Brendan>; but it does mean that commenting heralds should try to find the name in a more acceptable source.

No documentation is included for the epithet <far Waulker>, either for its formation (other epithets from period using something like 'far walker' or showing a pattern, like, say, 'long runner') or for the spelling (if this is attested, docs need to be included; if it's common language, should spelling be modern?) The submitter will not accept any changes, so we will need help from commenters here.

3. Bridget Woulfe Name and Device Resub/Kingdom


Sable and gules a chevron embattled Or in chief two moons in her plenitude argent in base a seal argent

Her previous name submission, <Bridget the Bloodthirsty> was returned on the December 1997 Internal Letter of Intent, as was her device. She cares most about the sound of the name, and includes documentation from Withycombe's third edition for <Bridget>, on page 54; also from Irish Saints by Robert T. Reilly, which has a chapter on Saint Brigid (pages 16-17, and 26). <Woulfe> is shown from Grehan's Dictionary of Irish Family Names, under 'Woulfe', including Father David Woulfe (1523-78).

The field is per chevron sable and gules, since the colour distribution as blazoned may be a little unclear.

4. Elisabeth Catesby Name and Device New

(Dragon's Mist)

Or a cat sejant to sinister within an orle vert

She wishes the name to be female, and authentic for 13-14th century English (time period and language and/or culture). However, her citations are both from the 15th century; she gives us:

English Surnames (p. 87) 1446

Wythycombe (p. 100) 1483

Also, she will accept neither major nor minor changes.

5. Elisabeth von Katzenheim Name Administrative change


A holding name, <Elizabeth von Katzenheim>, was formed for her on the May 1998 LoAR; this letter is to change that HOLDING name to a REGISTERED name, and perhpas to change the '-z' to an '-s' in 'Elisabeth'. However, it appears from her form that she would prefer whichever form is more correct for the 11th-12th century in Germany.

This is not an action I have handled before, and I had to ask for advice. Although I do not believe that the submission needs to go all the way through Kingdom, I wanted to make sure it was on an Internal Letter; I will send it up to Laurel on the October Letter of Intent.

6. Gorandookht Mamigonian Device Change Resub/Kingdom

(Glymm Mere)

Gules two peacocks pavonated to base respectant and a pomegranate Or

Her name was registered in January 1995. Her old device, Gules a natural seahorse and on a chief Or three pomegranates gules, slipped and leaved purpure, was registered in January 1987. If this device is registered, she wishes to retain her old device as a badge. Her previous device change submission was returned for conflict on the May LoAR; she now has peacocks where once she had lions.

7. Isa Estreys Name and Device New

(An Tir)

Azure ermined argent a four winged wyvern, head to sinister, displayed argent

Her name, <Isa>, is documented from Dutch Women's Names Before 1100 by Brian Speer, known in the SCA as Walraven van Nijmege. The article is found on-line at ; copies are included. <Estreys> comes from Reaney and Wilson 3rd edition, page 157, sub Estridge, as Peter Estreis 1148, and Hereman le Estreys 1282. She cares about the sound of <Isa> and the meaning of <Estreys>; <Estreys> means 'stranger from the east'.

8. Lorn Stark Device Resubmission/Kingdom

(An Tir)

Ermine, three wolves courant to sinister sable

His previous device submission was returned on the Internal Letter of August 1998 for conflict. His name is currently before Laurel. This device submission addresses the design issue that caused the previous conflict - that is to say, this submission utilizes three wolves rather than just one.

9. Michael Grey Name and Device New

(An Tir)

Per pale vert and sable six wheat stalks fretted Or, a label argent

<Michael> is documented from Reaney and Wilson 3rd edition, page 308, as Michael 12th DC; <Grey> is shown in the same source, page 203, sub Gray, as William Grei 1198, and Philip le Grey 1296.

The device is his (modern and SCA) mother's, differenced with a label. He has a letter stating the relationship and granting permission to conflict.

10. Michael Grey Badge New

(An Tir)

Azure ermined, a chevron between three horses heads couped argent

His name is submitted on this same letter, above.

11. Oriana of Myrtlewood Badge New

(Dragon's Mist)

(Fieldless) Three plates conjoined one and two

Her name was registered in April 1995. Should this submission be ruled to conflict with the badge of •elfri• Hluda, submitted in the same month and also on this letter, it is noteworthy that Oriana's submission arrived at Lion's Blood's office first! And no, they're not in this together; it appears to be just that good designs show up when their time comes around.

12. Tj–rvi the Stone Thrower Name and Device New


Quarterly gules and sable, in quarters 1 and 2 a cat's eye Or marked sable, all within a bordure argent

<Tj–rvi> comes from page 15 of Geirr Bassi. The desired gender of the name is male, and the submitter asks for assistance with the name phrase "the Stone Thrower". She wished to document an equivalent in Norse, but was unable to do so. She is willing to register it in English, but if a Norse equivalent can be found - basically indicating refusal to back down from a challenge - she would prefer it, even if it is not an exact duplicate of the phrase.

Because of this name, and the epithet 'far Waulker' submitted earlier in this letter, Lion's Blood would like to see some commentary about the rules the SCA uses regarding nicknames and epithets, especially when the given name is in one language and the epithet or nickname is in English.

13. Volodar Ivanovic Device New

(Fire Mountain Keep)

Per fess gules fretty argent and sable

This was such a nice piece that I broke my own rule and put it in this letter, in spite of the fact that it was on the OLD FORMS. Don't let your people send me things on the OLD FORMS, though, folks, cause this is the absolutely the last time I transfer anything. This time I really mean it!

An Tir College of Heralds - Internal Letter - October 1998

Back | Emblazon